09-19: Crusade

[Colonel Carter]

EPISODE NUMBER - 919
ORIGINAL U.S. AIR DATE - 03.03.06
SYNDICATION AIR DATE - 05.07.07
WRITTEN BY - Robert C. Cooper
DIRECTED BY - Robert C. Cooper
GUEST STARRING - Claudia Black (Vala Mal Doran), Tim Guinee (Tomin), Daniella Evangelista (Denya), Garry Chalk (Chekov), Tamlyn Tomita (Shen Xiaoyi), Michael Ironside (Seevis), Doug Abrahams (Prior), Alex Dafoe (Halstrom), Dan Shea (Sgt. Siler)

Vala Mal Doran makes contact with Stargate Command from the Ori home galaxy, and tells the story of her life undercover in a village of followers building the Ori's invasion fleet.

************************************************** ***************


This episode was weird. I also didn't like it very much but then I guess it's better than their usual flash-back episode. I think they spent entirely too much time telling Vala's story and that it could have been told a lot faster to allow for some real action. So I was very unimpressed with this episode.

While I found the Darth Vader comment amusing, I found the Merlin comment flat out stupid especially in contrast to no one mentioning Christ which was the most obvious response. I think perhaps Sam was the only one thinking it, maybe Landry.

The Russians want their Stargate back? Yeah - whatever.

I find the Ori impregnating Vala to be highly disturbing and while I question why they would do such a thing, I question whether or not the PTB are taking a stab against Christianity with it.

[Anissa T]

This is what I originally posted in the other forum.......


OMG, I laughed so hard during the scene in the locker room. That was SOOOO funny. Michael Shanks acted that perfectly. Interesting that she is pregnant. Why would they need to impregnate people? Hmmm....is there a weakness in the original DNA?

Oh and the shirtless shot of Ben Browder. Not upset about that even though they could have picked somewhere else for them to meet up.

Oh, oh and what did we say about the Chinese a few weeks ago? Daniel's gonna be a little upset about that.

What I found interesting is they were talking about "miraculous conceptions" and to my knowledge they didn't mention the Virgin Mary.

But, now I have another question? Why would the Ori heal him of only part of his problems? I don't understand that.

[Livia Sabina]

The Russians want their Stargate back? Yeah - whatever.

Wasn't the Russian stargate originally the US stargate?

[Colonel Carter]

But, now I have another question? Why would the Ori heal him of only part of his problems? I don't understand that.
I simply understood it because they're mounting an army so they want every man to fight, therefore heal all those who are handicapped so that they can join in the fight.

I wonder what the guy's initial injury or whatever was so that he couldn't bear children and walked with a limp. You don't suppose the Ori have the power to see into the future do you? If so they'd be pretty stupid to go to war with our galaxy given that they would have seen we'd win. :p


Wasn't the Russian stargate originally the US stargate?
Yes, our Stargate was taken up into orbit before an explosion which would have destroyed I think everyone on earth, that Stargate was never found and I think the government presumed it had been destroyed but Russia found it in the ocean and retrieved it while the SGC took the Antarctica gate. Then something happened to the Antarctica gate which I don't remember at the moment and they negotiated with the Russians, or maybe they already had, to get that Stargate back.

[ezboard import]

Anolog or digital gates? Did I miss something?

[Anissa T]

Um, I "think" it was a discussion over in the Atlantis forum about why their gate looks different than SG1's.

The New Stargate (http://p075.ezboard.com/fstargate76603frm4.showMessage?topicID=117.topic)

[Anissa T]

I wonder if there is any way to move a gate from another location back to Earth. Although, I would think there would be issues with the origination symbols. And I guess it would also depend on if the individual gates were initially analog or digital as well.

[John Hayward]

I posted this in the other forum.


They did, but they did it without actually mentioning it. When Vala asked them if they had heard of "anything like" her conception, Teal'c mentioned Darth Vader, Cameron said something like, "I was thinking of King Arthur," and Sam said, "You were?" in a tone which suggested she was equally as surprised by his answer as by T's. She was thinking of Jesus.

It's also interesting to me that Carter was the one who was thinking of the Virgin Mary. In a recent interview with Gateworld.net, Amanda Tapping said (quite emphatically, if I recall) that she believes Carter believes in a higher power of some kind. She didn't specifically mention Christianity, but the point is that when asked about a child being concieved without "doing the deed," as Vala put it, Carter's first thought was about Jesus Christ.

Although I very highly doubt they will succeed, I can understand the Russians wanting their Stargate back. Really, China is just trying to gain control of the 'Gate, and their using Russia by promising to "support" them or whatever. Their plan is basically for China to run the program. At least, that's what I imagine China's plan is. Kudos to Chekov (who I believe is a Colonel) for sending Landry those subtle signals that Landry was talking about when the two of them were standing in the Gateroom late in the episode. He's been around long enough to know that the Gate is in good hands.

And yes, the Russian gate is the one that was found in Egypt. When Thor's ship was overrun by replicators, SG-1 beamed it up so that they could escape through it. Then they used the Antarctica gate, until it had to be blown up, so the Russians (who had found the original gate in the wreckage of Thor's ship) leased the original gate back to us. Still, it's technically theirs I suppose. I don't see how we have any more claim over it than we do.

I personally DO NOT think the minds behind SG-1 are taking any kind of stab, poke, or prod at Christianity, otherwise they wouldn't have completely and utterly ignored the virgin birth of Jesus in the episode. Instead, their plan was to focus their attention, as well as that of the characters and the audience, on the fact that Aurthur was born the same way, and that the Ancients apparently did a similar thing way back in the day. As far as why, who knows? I'm sure we'll find out eventually.

Also, I think that Tomin was not healed of his limp until after he and Vala had been married. I may be mistaken, but I do believe that's how I remember it happening. Also, I liked that Seevis turned out to be a member of the resistance. I wasn't expecting that.

One thing I do find interesting, though, is that the Ori allow this resistance to continue. If they are really ascended, then they should be able to tell who really means to Prostrate and who's just going through the motions or whatever. Maybe they aren't entirely as ascended as the Ancients? That might also explain why they have either the need or desire to 'feed' off of their followers the way they apparently do. It makes no sense to me that the Ori would allow this resistance to exist if they do know about it. Regardless of the fact that they are apparently powerful and resourceful enough to stop Seevis' sabotage plan, I still don't see why they would allow these people to go around turning a bunch of people away from the "path of Origin," especially if it turns out that they really do need their followers, and not just want them. I'm definitely interested in learning more about the Ori.

[Colonel Carter]

Also, I think that Tomin was not healed of his limp until after he and Vala had been married. I may be mistaken, but I do believe that's how I remember it happening. Also, I liked that Seevis turned out to be a member of the resistance. I wasn't expecting that.
Was Tomin his name? Can't they be any more original than that? Tomin was the name of the boy who befriended Teal'c in the episode where they found kids doing all the work and Jack went awol to take a girl off the base to experience fun.

And yes he was cured after they were married. Was there a reason for stating that?


One thing I do find interesting, though, is that the Ori allow this resistance to continue. If they are really ascended, then they should be able to tell who really means to Prostrate and who's just going through the motions or whatever. Maybe they aren't entirely as ascended as the Ancients? That might also explain why they have either the need or desire to 'feed' off of their followers the way they apparently do.
I don't think so. From what they've said, there are different levels of ascension. You can become more powerful ascended beings if you have worshippers. At least that's how Daniel tried to explain it back at the beginning of the season. That there's some invisible force that if people give up their free will to worship the Ori it gives some kind of added strength and power to the Ori. Clearly the Ori are interested in being the most powerful dominant beings in the universe. Which actually makes it sound like the Ancients are screwed and that they wouldn't be a match for the Ori because they're not as powerful because they don't have worshippers.

However, if you look in the Pegasus Galaxy you find people everywhere hold the Ancients or "Ancestors" as they like to call them, in very high regard. I wonder then if that high regard somehow gives the Ancients more power.

[Livia Sabina]

Then something happened to the Antarctica gate which I don't remember at the moment and they negotiated with the Russians, or maybe they already had, to get that Stargate back.

The Antartica gate must have been the one they strapped to the back of the X-302. So the Russians actually charged rent on what was originally the US gate?

[Colonel Carter]

Well they're both originally U.S. gates in that perspective. It was the U.S. that discovered the gate in Antarctica. Although I'm not sure how the original gate came to be owned by the U.S. because clearly the people who uncovered it in Gaza, Egypt weren't American. I'm curious as to how such a thing ended up in the U.S. then. Did we buy it? Did we steal it? Was it given to us?

Even then, it should have been the property of Egypt originally to then sell or give to whomever they wanted. Since it was in their country.

Although I guess you could argue that since it was an alien device, it belongs to no one country.

I'm curious - does any country own Antarctica?

[Anissa T]

Um, if I'm not mistaken, Antartica is considered international territory. Kind of like being out at sea. Once so many miles off the coast it isn't considered any one countries water.

[Livia Sabina]

Possession is nine-tenths of the law, I guess.

Professor Langford made his home in America, maybe he brought the stargate there because he thought that they would be the ones most likely to be interested in finding out about what it was.

I wonder if the Russians wanting their stargate back is the ace up their sleeves that the Chinese representative was hinting at.

[John Hayward]

But, now I have another question? Why would the Ori heal him of only part of his problems? I don't understand that.
-NewFanAllAround


Also, I think that Tomin was not healed of his limp until after he and Vala had been married. I may be mistaken, but I do believe that's how I remember it happening.
-Me

My reason for stating that he wasn't healed until after he had been married to Vala is this. The Ori did heal him completely. Whatever disease or hadicap he had was simply removed. However, that was after he and Vala had been married, and after he "did the deed," and believed he and Vala had concieved a child together. That's why I said that.

Also, if you want to get real specific about it, nobody on Earth can really lay claim to the Stargate, because it belongs to the Ancients.

CC, that is an interesting point about how the Ancients are worshipped in the Pegasus Galaxy. I wasn't really thinking of it like that. Also, Gateworld.net (http://www.gateworld.net) spelled it "Tomin" although I thought it sounded like they were saying "Tobin" in the episode.

As far as how we got the gate from Egypt, I don't have a clue. And I'm pretty sure that there's not a country that owns Antarctica. According to Wikipedia's article on Antarctica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctica), there are a few countries that claim certain territory as their own, but most other countries don't give those claims much weight. Also, some of them overlap, but apparently it's not a big enough deal for the countries to sit down and work out who's got which parts. There was an Antarctic Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Treaty), signed in 1959, prohibits military actions on Antarctica. Other than that, it seems most contries pretty much ignore it from a political standpoint.

[Colonel Carter]

Tobin sounds right, like that's what they were calling him in the episode.

I'm still wondering if the Ori can see into the future. If they disabled the man so he couldn't have children so that he'd meet Vala, the Ori could impregnate her, and the people would believe he was the father. But then why all the pretense? If the Prior came out and told the people that the Ori impregnated her and it was the will of the Ori, they would believe it and treat her well.

[Anissa T]

I don't know whether they can or not. I don't think there's been any reason to assume that they can. Have the ascended Ancients every shown that they can see the future?

[Colonel Carter]

Not that I'm aware of, but just because they haven't demonstrated that in past episodes doesn't mean they can't or that it won't be shown in a future episode. It just seems rather conveniant how the whole thing took place, how there was a guy who was perfect for her that she ended up being with - all the will of the Ori.

I'm kinda hoping to see Daniel ascend again and come face to face with the actual Ori themselves. I think that would be cool because as for now, all the Ori are is an invisible people we've never actually seen whereas we've seen actual Ancients - Oma, the girl on the planet in the Atlantis episode "Sanctuary," the guy who descended twice, and the diner scene.

I think the Ori need to feel more real to us, I want to see their faces too, not just the effects of what they do.

BTW, did the dream of the fiery face above Vala in bed creep anyone else out too? I think I might wake up screaming from that nightmare.

[John Hayward]

I thought that scene was cool looking, and I agree that it would be cool to meet with an Ori face to face. However, the priors and their armies and ships will probably prove enough of a challenge for now. If that happens I'm not really sure it's going to be soon. Then again, it might be this coming Friday. Who knows?

[Colonel Carter]

I think we'll have to see the Ori before the end, before their destruction. Perhaps our people can defeat the Ori's armies of people, however, that wouldn't defeat the Ori. I'm guessing this ascension weapon might.

But I think back to the movie. Originally they didn't show Ra dying at the end, all they showed was the bomb zipping up to his ship and then the ship exploding. When they tested the movie on an audience, the audience ended up feeling very unfulfilled because they didn't get to see Ra die. So then they added in the special effect of him wasting away in seconds due to the bomb and the audience felt much more satisfied.

So if the show keeps with this understanding, we have to see the Ori or their death will feel very unsatisfying to us the audience, I think. :)

[John Hayward]

That makes perfect sense. I'm just curious whether we'll see them sooner, or later.

[Colonel Carter]

I'm hoping for sooner. If not in the season finale, then early on in the next season.

[John Hayward]

I don't think it will be in the season finale. According to the preview for next week, SG-1 goes looking for the Ascended-being-killing weapon that Merlin made, like they talked about at the end of last week's episode.

[Colonel Carter]

I wonder what they'll find.

I think it would be cool if they find out what happened to Oma. I hate storylines that leave you hanging and they never seem to revisit.

[John Hayward]

Really? I thought Oma was pretty much done. I was under the impression that her and Anubis were basically going to be locked in a kind of eternal battle where neither one can actually win but neither one can lose and be destroyed either. I was thinking the Oma storyline was finished.

[Colonel Carter]

What a horrible way to spend eternity.

I hope other ascended beings come to her rescue. I'll bet it can end if others join in so that it's no longer a one-on-one thing.

But if Anubis is only half-ascended, shouldn't that have given her more leverage? Probably Ancient rules.

Darn those Ancients with their smug superiority.

[John Hayward]

I know. Who do they think they are? Some sort of higher beings with wisdom and knowledge that we can barely begin to fathom who are so great and mighty and advanced that they have completely forsaken our very universe for a better one?

[Colonel Carter]

I sense sarcasm.

If they were as superior as you suggest, then how could people among them believe like Oma does?

[Anissa T]

Good point Carter. It's clear that there are some ascended that to not think they are the end all be all.

[Colonel Carter]

I think Oma and people like her are opposed to the rules forced by the majority which refuses to let them help those on a lower plane of existance from total annihalation or saving their lives. The rules of the others forbid this because they seem to claim that they think doing such things would make them like the Ori which I think is a total cop-out.

I think it's a total cop-out because I think about how we as humans do things to preserve species on our own planets. There are people who work to preserve animals that are facing extinction. Those people are saving the lives of those who we might consider on a lower plane of existance than our own, they certainly don't have the mental capacity or the resourcefulness that we have. But the people who work to save their lives and save them from total annihalation don't think of themselves as gods to these beasts. They do so out of no other motive than a moral and ethical one - to do everything they can to save and preserve life.

There are people who give help to other people. We liked to be thanked and recognized when we do good deeds, but sometimes we like to be anonymous as well, our good conscience being enough to satisfy us in just knowing we did the right thing. Occassionally you might find someone who does a good deed but their motives are anything but good and may then try to use the good deed they did to get something out of it - selfish ambitions.

I see this as a big defining difference between someone like Oma and someone like the Ori. Oma does good deeds not wanting to be worshipped but out of a moral sense of trying to save and preserve life. The Ori do good deeds out of selfish ambition. So then the Ancients thought pattern that helping their galaxy could lead to them being like the Ori is a cop-out. They should put laws in place and if they find any of their own demanding worship or anything like that or show obvious degrading in behavior - they should be dealt with. But to impose a "no-help" law is a cop-out. Imagine if our government made such a law. It's a total cop-out.

I think this is what led Oma to do what she did - try to help others ascend. Being powerless herself to fight evil in the galaxy, she saw her only way of saving lives was to help those facing anhialation to ascend. Daniel was facing certain death, the others would prevent her from healing his physical body, her only chance to save Daniel was to help him ascend. Her way around what she viewed to be an unjust law which clearly annoys the law-makers at her show of defiance.

But it shows that this ascension doesn't make people necessarily wiser. They don't all agree and that says a lot. I can just imagine if Jack ever ascended, he'd be like Oma. Jack is just that kind of guy. He would never settle to just sit back and watch evil destroy good people.

[John Hayward]

As we learned in Threads, Oma messed up. I'm not necessarily defending the Others' position, but they certainly must have looked like they knew what they were talking about when Oma saw that she had helped Anubis ascend. "Oops," she said. "We told you so," the Others replied, "and now you have to live with it- Anubis will be made half-ascended, and you get to watch him wreak havoc across the very galaxy that you thought you were helping.

Also, simply making a law that says "No making unascended people worship you," may not solve the problem, even if the Others do enforce it. As was mentioned elsewhere (in this thread, I believe), the people in the Pegasus galaxy worship the Ancients. I believe it was CC who suggested that maybe those worshippers would give the Ancients an equal playing field against the Ori. Using the people of the Pegasus Galaxy in that way, to gain power of their own so that they can defeat the Ori, puts the Ancients right on the edge of the line that the Ori crossed. On the other hand, maybe by that point they had already crossed it. The difference between the Ori using their worshipers and the Ancients doing so seems quite slim.

Here's the thing. It's not really about crossing lines. Once the Ancients get involved in the affairs of this plane of existence, then it's all shades of grey. First, they just help people ascend who would not otherwise have been able to. Then, they protect the people of our galaxy from the Ori. Then what? They decide to "save" the people in the Ori home galaxy from being forced to worship the Ori? And then? "Well, it's better that they should worship us than the Ori." In the end, you've taken so many small steps that you're much further into the darkness than you intended to go, even though you had good intentions all along the way.

It's so easy to take one small step in the wrong direction, especially if you feel you're doing it for the right reason. And after you've taken that step, it's so easy to take another. And another. And another. And when do you stop? When you become the Ori and somebody else comes along and takes their first step towards the darkness by defeating you. The only way, or at least the easiest, to keep yourself from ending up like the Ori is by following the "no interfering" law VERY, VERY strictly the way the Others do.

In the end, I guess I did defend the Ancients' position. So, that's my opinion on it. I mean, we're talking about the ANCIENTS! Does it really make sense to break their rules? I think at the very least we should give them the benefit of the doubt and trust that they know what they're talking about.

Oma broke the rule. She helped people Ascend who weren't really ready to. The result: Anubis.

Orlin broke the rule. He gave a planet an advanced weapon to help them defend themselves against the Goa'uld. The result: An entire planet destroyed itself.

Anyway, if I haven't made my point by now, then I'm probably not going to.

EDIT: And, in response to CC's post. A lot of animals that are facing extinction are facing it because we're here- because of the way we treat the environment. If we were able to live our lives literally on another plane of existence, and not affect the environment in any way, then it would be better to do that. If some species died out as a result of natural selection, then that's the way things are. But when we do get involved, when we live on the same planet as the environment, then even more animals become extinct, and forests are cut down, and the ozone layer is depleted. Our involvement, our presence, threatens the entire planet. In the end, maybe not meddling is better than meddling. Regardless of whether it's call meddling or "trying to help," it's the same thing.